In January, we launched a brand new season of No Little Plans. If you haven’t listened yet, you can do so here. The show also has a brand new host, Tokunbo Adegbuyi! He joined the show this fall, and he’s been working with our producers to create episodes ever since. You’ll want to tune in because this season, they explore issues like anti-Black racism in Canadian schools, digital connectivity gaps, how climate warming is a human rights issue, and what the high rate of police-related deaths in parts of Canada's north means for access to justice.

Born and raised in Edmonton, Alberta, Tokunbo currently works as a program supervisor at the Boys and Girls Clubs of Edmonton. He’s also doing a Master of Arts in community development at the University of Victoria. Having previously worked with charities and non-profit organizations, he now turns his talents to unpacking the UN’s Sustainable Development Goals in the newest season of No Little Plans.

I caught up with Tokunbo to find out what it’s like to take over hosting duties for an established show in its third season, how his experience in youth work and community engagement informs his hosting, and what conversations he hopes the podcast will spark across Canada.

Why don’t you start off by telling me a bit about yourself?

So hi, my name's Tokunbo. I work at the Boys and Girls Clubs of Edmonton and I am a program supervisor. It kind of expands out to community engagement and community development, too, because it's not just working with the kids. Rather, we build towards systemic changes so that people who are living in low income situations or marginalized situations are not, and have a better chance at success. That's generally what I do in my day to day. I also work with a team of folks to deliver after school programs and social supports to kids in schools. So that's a lovely program. What else do I do? I host a podcast, I'm not sure if you've heard of it, it’s called No Little Plans? It's pretty solid. [laughs]

Of course I’ve heard of it! So how did you get into doing youth work?

I kind of fell backwards into it. When I started university, I thought I wanted to be a pharmacist, then I started to do a nutritional food program instead. One of the most awesome courses I took was a community nutrition program, which was how to translate health principles to a community setting. I had found that this is actually what I want to do—working with people—as opposed to in a clinical setting or in a lab.

For funsies, because I wanted to try some things out, in my last year of university, I started volunteering at the Boys and Girls Club. I've never been to one, but I heard about them on TV. I think like Denzel Washington and J-Lo were the spokespeople for the American ones. So I applied to volunteer and I really, really loved it. I volunteered there once a week and I met all these kids that lived in the local community and the staff there were lovely. I was building relationships with all these young people. At this point I was 20, and I hadn't interacted with a child in a long time. [laughs]

On the side, I was also doing nutrition programming in schools for another non-profit. When I graduated university, they were like, ‘Hey, there's a job here, you'll work specifically with teens. Do you want to apply?’ And I did. I've been working with them ever since, I'm coming up on my sixth year with the organization.

So I want to ask you about the podcast. What's it like to join No Little Plans in the third season, where it's already had two and you're taking over as the host?

Scary. [laughs] I applied for this job because everything about it spoke to me. The broadcasting and audio recording portion of it, it just fits right into my interests. Like, the job posting was amazing. The cause of the podcast was something that I found really interesting. I'm currently going to school for community development.

I listened to the show and I was like, 'Oh, who's Vicky Mochama?’ And I Googled Vicky Mochama, and I was like, 'Oh, Vicky Mochama is like a big deal.’ [laughs]

So when I was actually hired, I was like, 'OK, got some shoes to fill here.'

It's been kind of daunting in that way, trying to live up to a certain expectation or a bar of quality. But it's also been wonderful because the team and the producers, Ellie in particular, who I work with really closely, has been just amazing in providing direction and supporting all of the back end to make the show go. All I've had to really worry about is writing, voicing, and being knowledgeable.

So taking over has been scary, but it's also been such a wonderful opportunity to meet new people, to learn different things, to work on my skills as a presenter and just being a knowledgeable person. It's been a really surreal experience. I really enjoyed it. I'm hoping that this season and then we have subsequent seasons, and I get to continue this kind of work cause it's been, it's such a unique experience for me and I love it.

That's awesome. And I'm wondering, too, because I see there's audio equipment behind you. You mentioned that the audio kind of fit into your interest. Have you done podcasting before or any audio work?

I have. So, yeah, I play drums and I play other instruments poorly, but I have been recording music, recording covers, and making short videos since I was a teenager. At work, when I was working with teenagers so frequently, a big draw to my programs would be like, ‘let's make a funny video, let's make a little skit, let's record something funny and interesting, throw it up on Instagram or whatever.’ So I have experience in multimedia production. When I got to take those skills and that side of production and recording and then merge it with the social services things that I do on a daily basis, I was like, ‘Oh, this is perfect.’

I did actually have a podcast in the past. It shall not be named because it has been delisted. But a coworker of mine and I had a podcast for the better part of a year, and we would just talk about comic books, essentially because we were big old nerds. But it was a really fun project.

Why is it important that No Little Plans exists when it comes to tracking the UN's Sustainable Development Goals? Because I know, personally, I did not know about the SDGs at all.

I had only heard of them because of a project I did at work with the Sustainable Development Goals. I think this podcast is important because it serves as more of a check for Canada. Because I think we kind of walk around with the notion that Canada is a developed country -- ‘we're done, we crossed the finish line, we're developed, of course we're sustainable. We're a world leader, this that and the other.’

But when we take a look at all these issues, when we look at the 17 goals and we break them down into these pretty critical categories, no. Not all Canadians are living the life that was promised to them. We're not setting that world standard like we think we are. We have this friendly reputation and that may be true in a lot of areas, but Canada has as much work to do as the next country. So I think this podcast serves as a semi-weekly reminder of like, 'Hey, there is work to be done.’

And, you're allowed to be proud of your country. You're allowed to be proud that you live in Canada. I wouldn't live anywhere else in the world. Canada isn't perfect, and we need to show that, we need to recognize it, call it out, and then speak to the people that are actually driving the change so Canada does become the country that it wants to be and that Canadians are able to all achieve equity with one another, because currently that isn't the case.

When you speak to these people who are driving the change, from a listener perspective, is this an uplifting podcast? Will listeners come away from it with a sense of hope?

It really depends. I think there is definitely a time and a place to be critical and to be like, never defeated, but to not pull our punches in the way that we discuss the subject matter. For example, the first episode is all about race and racism. We started producing this episode in October. As you know, the summer of 2020 was a big moment in terms of anti-Black racism, particularly in North America. And in that subject matter, these are people's lives, like we need to call it for what it is, and what it is isn't fun.

But at the end of it all, we are trying to find solutions, and we are trying to speak to the people that are driving the solutions. So it really is what you make of it. You could be like, ‘This is all doom and gloom. I'm going to bury my head in the sand.’ Or you could say, ‘Oh, this person wrote an article, and this podcast told me about it. This person organizes this group for parents. This person is doing this in schools to help young people of colour. I should look into that. I should support that.’

You can come away from this feeling sad... but you should! And I hope that you're coming away from this with an action plan of like, how am I going to help build towards a better, more sustainable future for Canadians?

The first episode is about anti-Black racism in education. What does that topic mean to you?

It's a large topic, anti-Black racism in general. We can take that in a lot of different directions. For me personally, when we were speaking specifically about anti-Black racism as it pertains to education, it spoke to me in a lot of different ways because I am a Black… hello.

I grew up in Edmonton and had a North American education that does not include Black history at all or African studies at all. So you don't see yourself in the curriculum. You don't realize that Black Canadians, number one existed, or contributed to the country, or were previously enslaved. Having a moment to be able to reflect and share these pieces with other people has been huge for me. It's something that I try and do with my work with the kids, promoting and bringing up these issues and having conversations because they're often not talked about in education when it comes to Black people in particular.

And then, of course, there's just the lived experience of being a Black person in Canada. There's not that many of us in comparison to the United States, especially out here in the west, in Alberta. And you do experience racism, like you've probably seen in the news. There are a bunch of pro-Trump or right-wing or xenophobic groups, and they are cropping up more and more. We're seeing a lot of them in Alberta.

This first episode was a great opportunity for me to introduce myself to the listener. Like, here's my background. Here's where I'm coming from when I talk about these issues, and in tying all these different pieces of my experience together to share about these topics. It was a very cathartic experience, I suppose, to dig into the research and find out what's being done to help the next generation, because I've graduated now. So I want to see how the curriculum is going to change. I want to see how representation in the classroom is going to change.

I was wondering, how old are you? Because I know when I was in school we really didn't learn anything about Black Canadians. Has it changed much for the kids that you work with in your youth group, do they learn anything in the curriculum?

I'm 27 and the answer is no. To know anything about Black Canadian history or African studies like, you need a particularly inspired social studies teacher to learn anything about African studies. But even just Black Canadian history is not talked about at all. I didn't know how late into the world segregation continued in Canada. I didn't even think we had segregation like that. I would always look at the Americans as kind of my analog for what Black history in North America was like.

I'd be like, ‘Oh, that's America.’ But it's Canada, too. So they're not being taught much of anything about it. It's still a very Eurocentric history and social studies curriculum, or at least it is here in Alberta, where to learn about modern day issues we often still go back to French history, British history, Canadian history, except without the Black people. Yeah, and like American history even, we'll learn more about their revolutions and their wars than our own. So, yeah, it's tough. The only time that I remember learning anything about Africa is the Rwandan genocide. That's it. And that's not like the learning experience that you want really, or the exposure that you want of a whole nation of people. So, yeah, it's lacking.

No Little Plans S3E1: “The Learning Curve”

So this season is going to tackle topics like racial equity, criminal justice, technology and climate change. Did you have a particular episode that you really liked?

I have found the most illuminating episode for me was the technology episode, because it is a focus specifically on technology as it pertains to the Northern territories. I didn't know just how bad things were. Like I knew that in terms of Internet technology and infrastructure that the North would be lagging behind everywhere else. But I never dug into the systemic causes of why that is, or the historical imbalances of technology that we've had between North and south. Speaking with all these people that are living it, and these activists that have been in this space trying to drive technological investment up North, and now in a pandemic where everyone is supposed to go home and work on the Internet, how untenable the situation is and how untenable the situation continues to be.

It's crazy to think that in the year 2021, we are literally on opposite ends of the country right now. We're having this conversation, no problem. It's part of the workday. Whereas this would be impossible for a lot of communities, for a lot of students, for administrators, for public office. How does a place function without the Internet? These communities have found ways, but they do need enhanced support from the government, or from private investment, to make the infrastructure possible because it is a fundamental need. The Internet isn't just a thing that you have and it's nice. Like, it is mandatory. It is a minimum public good.

Yeah, wow, I look forward to that episode as well. So the whole show is about putting Canada under the microscope, seeing if we live up to this notion of friendly reputation and forward thinking. What did you learn through your interviews with the sources? Was there any common theme that the people you spoke to?

Across all the episodes, I guess what they would have in common is that these people are... what's the word? Relentless.

They are the people that are most driven to make the changes. These are people that are spending their entire lives or careers devoted to these particular causes. They have all had something critical to say about the particular issue that we have spoken to them about. But none of them strike me as people who hate the country, who have an ill will towards, or feel spiteful, or anything like that. They are doing this work because they want Canada to be better. It is very inspiring to be able to speak with these people.

It’s a huge learning experience for myself as well. They're all very incredible people in their own right. It's hard to compare them all directly, because we spoke about such wildly different things. I’ve spoken with a student who was in university, and we've also spoken with a very established author, speaker, humanitarian, and activist, who was much later in her career. But they both bring that same energy of like, we need change, we need to drive it, the communities are seeing this need.

It's just the different insights that you get from people who live in different places and have focused on all these different areas. No one person could possibly be aware of all of these issues at once. So I'm very happy that we have this ensemble of really impressive people who want to speak with us.

You’ve spoken to tons of incredible guests this season, do you have a memorable moment recording this past season?

One that pops out at me is our interview with an author, her name is Silla Watt-Cloutier. She’s in our climate episode. She wrote The Right To Be Cold, and ahead of the interview, we read the book to understand what she was about. And it speaks about changes that have happened both socially and economically or ecologically to the Northern territories over the last couple of decades and the rapid changes that she experienced as a child from industrialization and then the changes in the climate.

Her interview was like looking into a portal of… how do I put this? She, in her single lifetime, experienced the amount of colonialism that, like my family and my ancestors experienced in Nigeria over centuries. Having her lay it out with, this is what happened to our livelihood. This is what happened to our land. This is what happened to our technology, in just like 40 years. Her story does illuminate like, man, Canada is doing wrong by these people. And we know that from our basic educations.

But speaking to a living embodiment of how those changes affected people, and then how the people responded to secure their livelihoods, to secure their future, and then to protect the environment. Something that we discussed during the interview is that she is essentially fighting for climate action to prevent global warming, to make sure that the Arctic stays frozen. Something that she has said is, I am not fighting just for my right, which I am, but I am fighting for your rights, too, because everyone benefits from a frozen Arctic.

No Little Plans S3E2: The Right To Be Cold

It's just a great example of how Indigenous knowledge is what's probably going to save everybody. [laughs] And how we're going to guide Canada into a more sustainable future, because like she's speaking to these strategies for climate change and ways in which we can protect the land, preserve the land and the animals on the land, and preserve ways of life. This does not require massive councils and ministries and oil companies to get this stuff done. Like, we have the answers. We just need to trust these folks and let them do it. So that entire experience, that entire interview process was really, really memorable for me.

I'm going to look up that book, it sounds awesome. OK, so I just have one question left. What do you hope that listeners take away from this season?

My hope would be for Canadians to remember that the territories are part of Canada, too. And a lot of the things that we do down south come at the expense of the territories. Like I'm from Alberta, it's like oil nation, right? All of these pipeline projects and the emissions that come after, have a direct and immediate impact on the livelihoods of people in the North.

I think we need to start looking at this country to be a bit more unified and in the direction that we're heading in, because it seems as though the Northern communities are constantly left to lag behind. I think we make excuses like, well, it's hard to develop up there. It's cold. There's hardly anyone there. It's not a dense enough population. Whatever thing that we're doing to justify the way that we develop this nation. But we're not going to be able to thrive into the future unless we are looking after the whole country and the people in the territories, again, just even on the technology side of things, live in a different world. And it's not fair. It's not equitable, and it's not how you build a sustainable future.

So hopefully when you listen to this season, you'll see that these issues affect every single person in the country, including those areas of the country that you've never been to. These people need to have a say in the way that the country moves forward as well.

I'm excited for people to listen to it and come back with questions because that is the biggest part of it. I want people to listen to it, but then I want you to do something else with it, like, OK, you've learned about these issues. Now, what? Whether it be monetary donation, whether it be starting to back a cause that you never really thought about before. I want action out of this because, otherwise, what are we doing?

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