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I don’t love feeling like a negative nancy — a hater, if you will — but when I first saw SmartLess (a new-ish show hosted by Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and Will Arnett) top the Apple Podcasts list, however many months ago, I winced.

I like them as actors, but not enough to say “Jason Bateman!” or “Sean Hayes!” or “Will Arnett!” when I see them on screen. I feel entirely neutral when I hear they’ve been cast in whichever movie. Will Arnett arguably has an excellent radio voice, but I simply do not care to hear his opinions on anything.
Writers have been documenting shifts in the public’s relationship with celebrities for a while. Before social media was a thing, there were tabloids and gossip websites, magazine interviews and celebrity profiles. I love celebrity profiles—I think about E. Alex Jung’s profile of Jennifer Coolidge where Coolidge reveals that she used to pretend to be Muffin Hemingway, Ernest’s least-known granddaughter, to get into clubs at least once a week.

What those forms of media have in common is that the celebrity is never truly in control of how they are represented. If they’re withholding in an interview, the journalist can bring that into the story, like in Taffy Brodesser-Akner’s 2018 profile of Bradley Cooper. As Jon Caramanica wrote in an essay about the death of the celebrity profile, also in 2018, (did my brain get stuck in 2018??) celebrity interviews have been a crucial part of their careers since the 1960s. But social media changed that, meaning that often what we’re getting is “Monologue, not dialogue.”

Add in celebrity podcasts, and it’s just enough to make me never want to hear directly from a famous person ever again.

Let’s talk about Busy Philipps. She hosted one season of her own late-night talk show, Busy Tonight, which I didn’t watch, but that’s only because I didn’t know how. I haven’t had cable in so many years. I don’t know where to find E! shows online, and to be honest, I didn’t care enough to try very hard. I watched some clips, and it seemed like a cute and fun show. Busy was a great host!

BUT!

A talk show does not happen without a large crew of people. There are producers, writers, set decorators, costume designers, and many others working behind the scenes to help Busy shine. Her charming personality and chemistry with guests make her fun to watch; but the crew gives a show structure and ultimately makes it good.

Also, a talk show is generally limited to half an hour. Maybe an hour. In reality, 22 or 44 minutes with commercial breaks.

But Busy Tonight got canceled in its first season, and now, she hosts a podcast: Busy Philipps is Doing Her Best. The average episode length falls between two and three hours, which is too long for most MOVIES, let alone podcasts. She co-hosts the show with her creative partner and Busy Tonight showrunner Caissie St. Onge, and it seems other writers behind Busy Tonight are somehow involved. This is all great!

But three hours??? And they spend the first forty minutes talking about like… their experience on a plane? Or something? I honestly had to stop listening. It’s not that there was anything wrong with what they’re saying. It’s that they’re saying nothing, and putting that out as content. In my opinion, SmartLess does pretty much the same thing, but at least they have the decency to keep the episodes to an hour or shorter for the most part.

Here’s my take: people with an inclination to start a chat podcast think their conversations are more interesting than they actually are. They probably really enjoy the conversations they have. It’s probably fun and stimulating and might even change the way they see the world. The plethora of chat podcasts out there might lead them to think it would be a good idea to share their conversations with the world. This instinct is, for the most part, misguided.

Katie sent me this blog post by Nick Hilton about podcasting's structural bias towards trash. In it, he writes:

“Now I’m not saying that every interview or chat show is trash... The system impels independent podcasters towards a specific type of podcast, as the only route to financing their work. And that is a problem. Personally, I think that if you’re an independent podcaster with little-to-no profile who aspires to be taken seriously, you are about a thousand times better off producing a well-researched and thought-out six-part documentary than you are producing 52 yearly episodes of a chat-show from your recording bunker."

There are excellent interview podcasts out there. I thoroughly enjoy producing the ones that I make, and I’m proud of them. There are episodes from On Being that have changed the way I think. But for every well-made interview podcast, there seem to be more and more celebrity chat shows cropping up, with little to offer the listener beyond access to interesting people.

And it’s not that I think celebrities shouldn’t be interviewed, or shouldn’t share their opinion—Ben McKenzie AKA Ryan Atwood, for example, has started reporting on celebrities’ roles in shilling cryptocurrency for Slate, and honestly, I think that’s incredible—but when a person in the public eye speaks, like an actor or influencer or whoever, people listen. Networks respond when celebrities want to make a podcast, because the draw of their name can be so tempting for advertising dollars or brand recognition. But when they’ve deemed benign conversations important enough to merit the resources that go into making a podcast, I wonder if it leaves less room for better-researched, edited, and refined work.

Anyway, Nick Hilton wasn’t really writing about celebrity podcasts, but while I was reading the blog I thought about the podcasts that I see as the biggest waste of resources. So to celebrity podcasters I say: if you’re going to take up so much space, do better, and have a bit of self-control.

Except for Stanley Tucci. Stanley Tucci, if you ever want to turn Searching for Italy into a podcast… call me.

We love audio production companies posting fully remote jobs. JAR Audio is hiring a full time producer to bring branded podcasts to life, with the salary listed at $65,000.

The Social genuinely seems like one of the most fun Canadian shows, and they’re hiring a producer. Apply by November 10.

The Globe and Mail is hiring a whole bunch of editors—some of which state 5 years experience preferred, but one of those positions is a 7-month contract and… doesn’t list experience preferences, so apply for that one.

Here are some CBC jobs for ya:

The National is hiring a full-time news content producer for a temporary, one-year position! Apply by EOD on November 9.

CBC New Brunswick is hiring a full-time, permanent digital reporter/editor, and you have until EOD on November 9 to apply.

CBC Indigenous is also hiring a full-time, permanent reporter/editor, specifically someone who’s connected to Atlantic Canada’s Indigenous communities. Apply by EOD on November 9.

If you love working evenings and weekends, CBC is hiring a full-time, permanent evening and weekend digital reporter/editor based in Calgary. Apply by EOD on November 17.

I am obsessed with this. The folks over at Constellations are producing a new project called Mystery Box, “a weird world of eccentric experimentation and sonic tomfoolery.” I am listening to their first episode now and I cannot describe it, you just have to listen for yourself. It made my brain explode in the best way. Wear headphones. You may be wondering why this is in Hey, freelancer and not in What we’re listening to. Good question. The answer: they’re looking for your brilliant submissions. Read about the project, listen, and then send them your sounds!

Writer Caitlin Kunkel compiled a list of humour and satire websites where you can submit your writing. I haven’t looked at the pay for all of these, but from my own experience writing for McSweeney’s, it’s not much. That said, it’s very fun. I think of it like a hobby that can cover the cost of my lunch.

A reminder that the CAJ Mentorship application closes at 5:00 p.m. ET November 12. You have to be a member to apply, and they have a heavily discounted student rate. This is an incredible opportunity to learn from journalists across the country, and if you’re reading this and thinking to yourself, “hmm… maybe I should apply…” then you should apply!!!!! Honestly I want them all to mentor me.

And then: the CBC Doc Mentorship program is accepting pitches until November 20. This one perhaps requires a little more thought, but does not require membership—it’s for Canadian freelance audio producers and current CBC employees. Fun fact: I am both of those things! And you can be too! You can read about this year’s mentors and actually get in touch with them before the deadline, which I’m sure would go a LONG way to bringing your idea from inside your brains to inside our ears.

I was so excited to see what the wonderful producers at Media Girlfriends would do with the new Historica Canada podcast, Strong and Free. I love learning about history, and I DEFINITELY love Heritage Minutes, though my love for Heritage Minutes may be slightly inflated due to the fact that I always accidentally categorize the North American House Hippo ad as one.

Garvia Bailey and Hannah Sung produced this six-part series about Black Canadians whose contributions have often gone overlooked. I was familiar with some of the subjects, like Herb Carnegie, but others, like Mary Ann Shadd, were brand new to me. I highly recommend listening to that one without reading the description, because there’s a twist in the first few minutes that makes the listening experience so fun. This is a good podcast for anyone who likes learning about broader history through the prism of interesting historical figures.